Please go to and read summary of meeting discussions.

http://www.aei.org/events/filter.,eventID.1246/summary.asp

"Our culture is in the grip of the “precautionary principle.” From agricultural biotechnology and biomedicine to geopolitics, international business, education, and our most intimate relationships, risk aversion has become a defining and paralyzing ethic of our time. The notion that we should forsake the products and benefits of new technologies until they are proven to have no adverse effects reflects an obsessive fear of the unknown. The broader and more deep-rooted implications of our new precautionary culture have been left unaddressed. This February 14 AEI conference, organized in cooperation with the UK Institute of Ideas, met to promote wider discussion of why so many aspects of contemporary life have been affected by our aversion to risk. Panelists concluded that only by challenging the wider risk-averse culture that permeates contemporary society can we hope to rediscover a sense of purpose about progress and a desire to experiment with new ways of doing things."

As stated we may have gone too far. I think a lot of what is suppose to be for the children stems from the upbringing of the boomers who were cramed cheeck to jowel in schools, sports, and everything else. The system in place at the time was overwhelmed, my grade school classroom was forced to hold at least 50 or more students at a time. By high scholl this was reduced to 30 to 40. Youth sports programs were very competitive because it was supply and demand. There were far more students to form a team and it was harder to compete to be a member of a team. The only thing the boomers didn't want to excell at was soldiering. You had to be very good to be recognised for anything. Maybe those who did not make the grade became the future social engineers as their children entered school and all parents want the best for their children and remember the disappointments of their own childhoods. Boomers were as a group aways lost in the crowd.

The boomers probably went too far when given the chance to formulate policy. The geeks form policy, the over achievers run corporations.

I remember a lot of the social engineering that was presneted to the boomers as we matured, especially overpopulation, social security, and medical insurance as Medicare was discussed. As a result many of us had fewer children than our parents, many women stayed in the work force to follow careers. The federal government increased the max payment into social security based on the number of predicted boomers and spent lavishly the funds generated. The costs of medical care skyrocketed as boomers became beneficiaries of group insurance building huge pools of money to be absorbed by the insurance companies that had to be invested. TV movies on the high costs of medical care for our parents were the subject of tv movies and medical series until Medicare was passed for seniors. The concept of one child per family and cutting medical care off for seniors at a certain age were presented. Government had the money to create these programs, they did, but no one looked to the day when the smaller families would reduce the ratio of employees vs beneficiaries or taxpayers vs beneficiaries. The money was rolling in and the government had to do something with it.

Maybe smoking bans and such are the result of trying to keep as many taxpayers alive for as long as possible to keep feeding the monster that the boomer influx had on our social systems.

The boomers are about at the end of their consumer life and government is committed to provide them the benefits they feel they deserve. Regardless of their consumerism, they will continue to vote until their lives end.

The day the ponzie of social security is about to collapse under it's own weight. We have seen it in the pension plans that have been turned over to the government, the retoric of GM and companies like them who have dispersed the income earned to stockholders for the last 40 years instead of making proper contributions to pension plans. Many states have the same problems with teacher, police, firefighter, and staff pensions.

Risk is not currently a part of our lives because the majority of us are about to retire and expect the benefits of past risks to pay off and currently they seem to be in jeopardy.

Or else the whole focus of the risk averse, politically correct nanny state is control of the population.

I think it more goes to those that simply have this pathological hatred of smoking and therefore smokers. Just as we refer to the antis as nico-nazis, the orginal Nazis didn't elect Hitler and then fire the ovens the next day. It has been a progression since the early 80's. First it was those that claimed they were 'annoyed' by smoke drifting past thier table. (Remember those dorks with their hand held fans and squirt guns?) Instead of doing something about the ventilation, the nearly immediate response was 'non-smoking sections' The next step was the 'Clean air Act of 84'pushed through by then surgeon general C. Evert Koop. Once again their was never any discussion about ventilation, simply another set of places suddenly and without need, decared non-smoking. Enter the 90's and the SHS fruad, and suddenly non-smokers need to be 'protected' form the vile fumes. In every case any sembleance of reasonable solutions has been thrown out the window. Could we really be headed to where the country is declared Smokenfrie? The end result waits to be seen.

So you believe that people dying of asbestosis have no legal recourse and should just "accept" that they have been poisoned?

How about lead-based gasoline? Lead-based paint? Those folks are all overly cautious or worse yet, intolerant?

Give me a break! Look at which side you are fighting for. These companies know full well the effects of their products yet did nothing to voluntarily warn anyone. W/o gov intervention, you are assuming that for-profit enterprises will behave ethically.

Perhaps companies would voluntarily stop dumping waste into our rivers and lakes vs. dispose of it through the proper channels?

Good intentions never fly in the corporate world and it is naive to believe otherwise.

The toxcity of these products has become known relatively recently. Most exposure happened when the products were in full production and in common use, even by the government.

Who is to say the "proper disposal" isn't going to be a problem in the future, just as these products were once considered normal and beneficial?

The Roman empire used lead pipes to convey water throughout their cities, but Italy is still inhabited today.

quote:

Originally posted by Jason K:
So you believe that people dying of asbestosis have no legal recourse and should just "accept" that they have been poisoned?

How about lead-based gasoline? Lead-based paint? Those folks are all overly cautious or worse yet, intolerant?

Give me a break! Look at which side you are fighting for. These companies know full well the effects of their products yet did nothing to voluntarily warn anyone. W/o gov intervention, you are assuming that for-profit enterprises will behave ethically.

Perhaps companies would voluntarily stop dumping waste into our rivers and lakes vs. dispose of it through the proper channels?

Good intentions never fly in the corporate world and it is naive to believe otherwise.

I don't know who or what you are arguing about, but did you know there are acceptable levels of asbestos in drinking water? I think your anti-corporate hate should maybe extend to municipalities.

I don't know what else to say here other than lead paint was perfectly safe when used as directed AND intended: To be put on surfaces requiring paint. It was never meant to be eaten.

Jason K and any others interested on here:
Please go to the link and read all of it.
I posted especially for you and yours.
And I mean read, think, conclude for yourself. Use your little grey ones (as one of my favorite slueths, Poirot, would say)..take each point of discussion and come back here with your arguement, logic and conclusion of why you believe the way you do regarding precautionary principle in every step of your life.
I will then discuss, discourse with you on the subjects as you present them. (from my point of view of course)
I await your debate!

reminds me of this Social Darwinism



http://www.ioa.com/~shermis/socjus/socdar.html

quote:

Originally posted by squeezer:
I think your anti-corporate hate should maybe extend to municipalities.

Water fluoridation?

Pay attention, my friend.

quote:

Originally posted by Jason K:

quote:

Originally posted by squeezer:
I think your anti-corporate hate should maybe extend to municipalities.

Water fluoridation?

Pay attention, my friend.

No you *****, ASBESTOS!!!

Are you aware of Libby, MT and the chaos that this harmless thing called asbestos caused?

Read up and be in the know for once.

After that, perhaps you can graduate to water fluoridation. Only after that could you continue onto anything about nicotine or tobacco.

I need to take you through baby steps before we get to the hard part.

quote:

asbestos

who hasn't heard of the 60 years asbestos Toxic dust contaminated with lethal asbestos fibers poured out of the mine for decades

so what are you saying Jason are you comparing asbestos poision to tobacco smoke

Oh yes, that is EXACTLY what I am saying.... and a cat is a penguin and it rains milk duds from the sky.

What a useless forum.

quote:

far-fetched analogies

jason one of your far-fetched analogies

comparing asbestos to tabacco smoke

or the antis comparing 9-11 to tobacco

oh and btw "Just why are you here again" if you think this is a "Useless forum" maybe you ot to leave and go back to aplace where your opinions seam reasonable to others like yourself ASh

quote:

Precautionary Principle

heres a question

do you think society should be held accountable for how it protrays harm and abuse

there are laws in place to protect children from of abuse, there are laws in place to protect people from any type of abuse..

but then society as a whole allows certain "Mental" emotional abuse of certain groups of people

how and what is that teaching new generations of children?

Jemeyes, a whole generation of children are already taught that it is OK to deride (hate) a person who they see smoking, because of a percieved risk factor-which they have been taught in school, on tv, at home from a parent, from corporations and .orgs and govt's and on and on. As a smoker, I have my own personal control to accept or decline the power of abuse towards me. I have the power to choose to not live in fear of someone elses percieved fears. I have the power to choose not to blame anyone, anything for what might happen to me and mine. I have the power to choose where to work, where to go out, where to spend my $$, who to love, who to support (in all aspects of life), or choose anything at all. I have the power to affect things in my life-or just wait for the effect.
I refuse the victim mentality.
Yes, I percieve the hatred surrounding me as a smoker. No, I will not succumb to it.
It is my control, my responsibility, my choice to live this way-not society's, not my neighborhood, not my gov't, not anyone's but mine.

quote:

Originally posted by Jason K:
Are you aware of Libby, MT and the chaos that this harmless thing called asbestos caused?

Read up and be in the know for once.

After that, perhaps you can graduate to water fluoridation. Only after that could you continue onto anything about nicotine or tobacco.

I need to take you through baby steps before we get to the hard part.

Geez, you seem to base everything on extreme examples. No wonder you're scared of your own shadow.

Drinking too much or too little water can kill you.

Too much or too little sunlight the same.

quote:

Originally posted by squeezer:
Geez, you seem to base everything on extreme examples. No wonder you're scared of your own shadow.

Drinking too much or too little water can kill you.

Too much or too little sunlight the same.

Another useless post by squeeker.

Says nothing. No redeeming value (except to pad your post total).

[/QUOTE]

Another useless post by squeeker.

Says nothing. No redeeming value (except to pad your post total).[/QUOTE]

You Jason are in no position to describe anyone elses posts as useless.