to do with taxes. Check it out.

http://wire.ap.org/?FRONTID=NATIONAL&SLUG=CIGARETTE%2dTAXES

Yes ... when taxes are to high, they don't submit ... they smuggle. The anti's and politician's are nervous ... they are hoping smokers stay passive and just reach deeper into their pockets. I think this may be a watershed year ... smokers are fed up with the tax increases. The tax hike's this year were huge across the board.

Our job is to encourage all smokers ... shop elsewhere!

hmm, the link isnt working this morning - can you check it and see if it needs adjusting - I poked around and couldn't find the story.

Same here ripple, I get a US state map for getting the Associated Press, its member newspapers and broadcasters. Just click on a state for the list in that state. I thought this could come in handy for contacting editors, so I bookmarked.

As usual, I found the general tone of the article insulting to smokers. The media just loves the anti mind set with its distasteful terminology. In the process of selling papers, they have methodically transformed fine upstanding citizens who do more than their fare share into common criminals.

One line really sent me through the roof: "Some states already are sending tax bills to smokers who patronized the Internet."

The nerve of these people. What's wrong, the taxes on other goods sold over the internet aren't high enough to warrant sending those people tax bills as well.

I am so fed up with the leadership in this country I could croak.

To the best of my knowledge, it will take 10 years for the FEDS to crack down on Internet sales.

They can't just go after tobacco without going after EVERY company and EVERY one who sells ANY thing over the Net.

Unless, the company or individual turns in a list of customers, there is no way that the FEDS can collect taxes.

When people buy cigarettes over the Net, I try to warn them to make certain the seller isn't turning in his customer list to the IRS. If a seller does this, I would refuse to do business with them.

Some are doing this. Most are not. But it's still no guarantee that the seller won't cave within time, if he is pressured enough.

We all know how dirty the government can be, and they can "watch" a smoke site very patiently, and if they bother the seller continuously, some sellers might cave in.

If you know what I mean.

Well, I heard one internet retailer already moved out of the country... well away from Uncle Sam's greedy hands. Don't remember who or where.

He he, maybe the Afgans should forget about poppies and go into tobacco. A sure way to bring themselves out of the stone age and on par with their oil rich neighbor the Arabs.

OBSTITVM TYRANNIS EST OBOEDIENTIA DEO

These folks don't talk to the State of California http://www.hot-ent.com

Higher taxes are not just going cost ... money ... but, children's health. Here's another article and video from the UK ... where highly toxic conterfeit cigarettes ... containing all sorts of banned chemicals ... are flooding the market and kid's are now buying.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/england/newsid_2123000/2123054.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/video/38133000/rm/_38133184_fakecigarettes_kretzschmar_vi.ram

When I keep seeing articles that harp on some particular event using different wording it makes me think that 'the people' are being fattened up for another kill.

The Indian Reservations and Internet sales appear to be next on the menu for the 'tax-starved politicians'.

Smokers Fed Up With Prices Take to Cyberspace

Interesting article Boomer. The local convenience stores seem to think a lot of their tobacco business has gone 'Native'.

Also, the local stores are subject to draconian penalties if tobacco is sold to an undercover minor.

One store I go to may stop hiring 'kids' to work at the checkout counter. They are too likely to sell to a friend who doesn't have ID - and if a non-kid has to stand there to supervise the owner might as well just hire the non-kid in the first place.

This whole thing is a lose lose lose proposition for everyone except the trial lawyers, MSA beneficiaries & professional nannies.

Yes, gnatyo, it truly is interesting reading.

The anti-smoking gestapo didn't change the world for the worse all in one fell swoop; they did it incre’mental’ly. (With heavy emphasis on the "mental" part of it)

I'd like to take this opportunity to say that I've been 'reading' you for some time and see a kindred spirit in your writing.

I believe that those of that care, meaning everyone that posts here and elsewhere that
stand up to those that would be the 'new prohibitionists/puritans' are kindred as well.

Over time, those of us that are REALLY looking, see the real meaning between the lines in the articles and propaganda. (Which are many times, one and the same) This isn't something that happens by reading a few articles about any one subject. And as you and everyone else on this forum knows, it's an art form to be able to read between the lines and to able to write those lines.

As much as I despise those that would take away a single freedom, I must be respectful of those that do it so well.

I don't really know where I'm going with this line of thought but I'd bet there many others of us that feel the same way.

This would be a good time to give input as to how you and anyone else feels about all this...Time could be running short if the nanny's succeed in silencing us and you can bet they want to.

Today smoking, tomorrow McDonalds, Internet Sales, Mail Order, and eventually, freedom of speech. It really isn't much of a reach when one considers how far the anti-freedom contingent has gotten in 12-13 short years.

Dang it, there I go again, preaching to the choir.

Perhaps one of those rich and powerful pharmaceutical companies will come up with a pill to relieve me of "all this anxiety".

They could call it "Prozac with a twist of lime"!!

Really though, anyone have any similar thoughts about this or think I’m out in some poppy field?

LOL, we must both be in the same poppy field, Boomer! The whole current political environment seems so surreal, I can't believe which country I'm in. I also can't believe that I grew up in the same country with these antis of today. I must have been watching a different channel than most of "them".

==="And as you and everyone else on this forum knows, it's an art form to be able to read between the lines and to able to write those lines. As much as I despise those that would take away a single freedom, I must be respectful of those that do it so well."===

I wouldn't give those fear motivated, power monger manipulators one iota of respect for anything they do. They are misguided by the idea that if the world was just like them it would be a much safer world. What they do is not an art form but a trial and error technique they've honed over many years, which they then share verbatim among themselves like instructions for putting a kids toy together. That's why they all act and sound the same as if pressed from an assembly line themselves. They are the epitome of conformism.

I experience anxiety as well and at times it wears me down, but as soon as my fighting spirit returns, I channel that energy into beating them back into their mud holes. We must continue to us their lies against them. Then it doesn't take a genius to read between the lines of deception. Don't be defensive in the face of their righteousness, be proud and laugh in their faces for the clowns they really are.

Peter, I'm having such a good time undermining everything said by ol' Mr. Potato Ed on the Pioneer forums, I realized yesterday if he didn't exist, we'd have to invent him.

I agree with Peter. Screw 'Em.

Lock, ain't it the truth!

Peter, you won't get an argument out of me on that but I still say it's better to have respect for the enemy rather than underestimate them.

Dave, Yep!

Peter, I wholeheartedly agree. Just one thing about the "respect", it's not respect for the puppetrators of the anti-freedom crusades themselves, but respect of the power and control they have accumulated over the years by feeding the public a bunch of chocolate covered turds. We, ourselves, are but a loose confederacy of people firing off different opinions at those attacking us, which in itself can a good thing because of the unpredictability of it. Antis are often at a loss of words for they don't know what they're going to get hit with next. However, when we make mistakes with attributions or other errors like attacking people out of frustration, our messages doesn't look as good as some of the well-prepared chocolate covered anti-smoker turds. We can only win this war one person at a time. Teach one person to see, who will teach two people, and so on. Smokers and non-smokers can live together peacefully. It just takes one town opposing the antis for all the right and just reasons and it will stand like a beacon to all those others lost in the dismal darkness in a sea of acrimonious despair.

In dealing with respect, we have to face the fact that there are a lot of well-intentioned people out there who think the turds they're buying and eating don't stink because they're wrapped so nicely and they're quite ignorant of the whole sordid anti-smoker manufacturing process. Those people are not all antis, but many are simply grossly mis-informed followers. The respect means to not beat those people over the heads indiscriminantly expecting them to immediately see, but be respectful of what they do see and gently peel away a little of the chocolate coating so they they get the full glorious aroma of the rotting crap underneath.

All of us keep getting painted as pawns of big tobacco, and they try hard to show the evilness of big T through the glorious "secret" tobacco docs to portray some sort of guilt by association on any of us who have different opinions. Maybe we should take a chapter from their book and systematically uncover their infrastructure of the founding of their crusades, then paint those who blindly follow that faith as... whatever... Heck, I don't ever even read the tobacco docs, I read their crap. Most references I ever throw out in debates come from the "geniuses" behind the crusades themselves. They really hate that.

Look at the history in the PubMed database of published chocolate-covered crap from Glantz over the years. Notice ref number 138 of the list published in 1984 was the start of his prolific anti-smoking writing career. Look at this one he wrote in 1980, about incorrect use of statistical methods. It's insanity at it's finest, since it comes from very one, who in my opinion, is the great grand-daddy of em all for skewing statistical analyses using every known trick in the books on how to cook the books. But most of all, look at the most recent references from 2000 and beyond, to see how this "Doctor" has transformed himself from a one interested in scientific research to a pure political activist running on misguided and misshapen opinion.

Keep the faith.

[This message has been edited by lockjaw02 (edited 07-20-2002).]

"Peter, I wholeheartedly agree. Just one thing about the "respect", it's not respect for the puppetrators of the anti-freedom crusades themselves, but respect of the power and control they have accumulated over the years by feeding the public a bunch of chocolate covered turds. "

I see your point. I've come to associate the term "respect" with "admirable." So in that respect I have no admiration, not even for their power and control. I much prefer "cautious disdain." I know there are times I can be a bit picky, but hopefully in this case it's a good thing.

Hee hee, "chocolate covered turds." Amazing how three little words can speak volumes.

You're absolutely correct in how we must deal with misinformed victims of hard-core anti's. Respectfully peel away a little of the chocolate.

Excellent post lock.

[This message has been edited by Peter Gatti (edited 07-20-2002).]