I ran across a site that compares prices at several dozen online smokeshops.
http://www.discount-cigarettes.org

I live in California, so I could save a lot by buying at some of the shops listed. Does anyone know if this is legal? Will the state tax department come after me if I buy online? Many of the shops say no---but I wondered if anyone has personal experiences with this?

I don't know much more than you do. However, there's a document from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, Department of the Treasury, which says:

"ATF has recently received several inquiries about cigarette sales and purchases that involve Native American reservations. Sales or shipments of cigarettes from Native American Reservations are not (their emphasis) exempt from the requirements of the Contraband Cigarette Trafficking Act and the Jenkins Act. Additionally, the application of State taxes and regulatory requirements to sales made on Native American reservations varies depending on the transaction. Accordingly, anytime you engage in transactions involving a Native American Reservation, ATF recommends that you contact your State tobacco tax administrator to determine the extent of your liability for State tobacco tax." (p. 5)

Here's the link: http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/99-2ic.html

Does anyone else know more about this?

PS: I see the link doesn't work for this or the one below. Don't know what the problem is but I'll try to check it out.

Martha

[This message has been edited by Martha Perske (edited 04-12-2000).]

There's also this from ATF: "ATF is especially interested in information about possible tax evasion (Federal or State or local taxes)." http://www.atf.treas.gov/core/tobacco/tobdiversion.htm

I don't mean to scare anyone off from ordering. It's just that we should at least be aware of these documents.

Martha

I don't know about California, but here in New York, the Indian tribes won a hard-fought battle against the state, on the grounds that New York had long-ago signed a treaty with some of the tribes which clearly stated that revenues from the sale of cigarettes belong solely to the tribes.

I am lucky enough to live fairly close to a reservation, so I buy them from my "local" tribe. I pay cash, though, just to be on the safe side....you never know when the state will try to reneg on those treaties again....the Indians are making a KILLING here; their stores are packed solid, even on Monday mornings.

Good luck to you,

Regards,
Jenny

There's an even easier way to smoke cheap and not worry about the taxman.

Roll or stuff your own.

Spinner has a wonderful listing on the Smokers United website (makes no money from it, just supplies the information)
http://come.to/SmokersInfo

Scroll down to the smoke cheap section - I believe it is on the left hand side. And as Spinner says - Smoke Cheap - Piss off the anti's!!!!!

No one would bother buying over the internet & waiting for delivery if the taxes were not so punitively high. The Govt seems to think we are all fools. High taxes & fines will "stop" us from driving too fast or smoking, but high taxes won't stop us from saving & investing.
I don't figure the Govt should have it's hand in our pocket + the money they've extracted from the tobacco companies isn't even going to help the poor "addicted victim" who smokes. It's going for port barril projects - as usual.

I do not know whether or not these Native American Smoke Shops are legal. However, accordng to an article in the New York Post today they are making a major impact on NYS tax coffers. James Calvin, president of the New York Association of Convenience Stores stated "The cigarette-tax increase has triggered a tax-evasion stampede." He also said that after only one month, the impact on stores has been "Severe," with sales dropping between 30 and 50 percent.

Personally, I do not wish to punish convenience store owners. However, if NYS is impacted by this "tax-evasion stampede", then good!! New York deserves it for imposing this ridiculous tax. I purchase my cigarettes on-line and will continue to do so.

Spence, I'm with you. In fact, buying from the reservations not only saves money and keeps the tax money out of the hands of the spending-addicted legislators, but it helps a group of people who have been repeatedly screwed by the state and federal governments.

The money earned from casinos and cigarette sales by Indian tribes is at last helping raise those tribes out of abysmal poverty and hopelessness. In many states the tribes are now able to afford to build decent schools and hospitals and housing for tribe members, and it is also giving them the wherewithal to defend themselves from further government abuses.

In other words, buying from the tribes not only saves money, but it has a multi-faceted beneficial political and economic effect too.

I don't like hurting the mom-and-pop convenience store owners either, but perhaps this will motivate them to join us in trying to defeat legislators' insatiable greed for taxpayer money, especially from smokers.

So roll your own or buy Indian!

Hey, I don't want to screw the Mom & Pop stores either, but there is NO WAY I'm paying $41.00 a carton for cigs when I can buy them for $28.00 someplace else. As I have said before, if the proprietors of these establishments have a complaint, it is not with me OR with the Indian tribes; it is with the Federal and State governments, and they should direct their complaints to them.

Until even non-smoking Americans take up our battle with us, nothing will change. When stores begin to close and businesses begin filing for bankruptcy, and the owners of said businesses begin complaining to the bureaucrats, THEN we will see results. If by telling the card-shop's customers about a cheaper place to buy cigarettes hastens that day along, well then so be it. We asked for the shopkeepers' help early on and we didn't get it. They made their beds. It is time to lie in them.

In the meantime, I am VERY much enjoying smoking cigarettes which are miraculously free of ANY tax stamps on them.

Regards,
Jenny

Jennifer, the convenience store owners through their organization that represents them (New York Association of Convenience Stores) lobbied vigorously against this obscene excise tax increase as did the tobacco companies, to no avail. This tax was crammed down our throats and they don't care whether we like it or not! Hey, we're smokers and they know we are a passive bunch by nature and they can beat-up on us whenever they feel like it.

Also, as a resident of the Peoples Republic of New York you must be aware that legislation is enacted not by our representatives but by Senate Majority Leader Joe Bruno, Gov. Pataki and Sheldon Silver. So we can write, call, fax, e-mail, kick, holler and scream to our legislators but if these three stooges say the tax is going up 55 cents, it's going up 55 cents!! That's that!! Truly, Democracy in action.

The revenues generated by this massive tax increase will be used to help fund a program called Family Health Care Plus, part of the Halth Care Reform Act of 2000. Now, the Three Stooges (Bruno, Pataki and Silver) along with the powerful health care lobby decided they will bankroll this program for families without health insurance on a tax that is intended to produce ever diminishing revenues!!?? I know this because they told us the tax is intended to discourage underage youth and adult smoking. The tax along with tobacco settlement money is a major component in the revenue stream needed to pay for this program.

Quite frankly, I don't get it. If everyone quits smoking, who pays for this stuff? Very, very confusing public policy if you ask me.

Spence

Spence, it sure is confusing public policy, and you are quite right about Bruno, Pataki, and Silver; they really do run this 3-ring circus here in New York. When this nonsense was first proposed, I screamed to High Heaven to everyone I could think of. Take a guess at how many responses I got. None. Zero. Well, the NEXT batch of letters and phone calls won't be nearly as polite, though as you say, I doubt anyone is listening up in Albany.

On another thread on this board, someone asks WHY nobody listens. In my opinion, one of the reasons is that the smokers themselves have been cowed into submission by the relentless propaganda machine of the anti-smoking gang, and the non-smokers....well, like so many of us, appear not to have the time to take up our cause. I assume they will think differently when it is THEIR ox being gored. We'll see.

I'm glad to hear about the Convenience Store Association, though from the response I got from my local store owners, you sure couldn't tell that they fought this legislation; with one exception, none of them would even allow me to drop off a petition at their stores. They said they didn't want to make their anti-smoking customers angry. So be it.

Regards to you,
Jenny

We feel bad about the local businesses that have lost patronage because of the anti-smoking laws & taxes they fought against too. We don't go out for a "relaxing" dinner someplace where my husband can't relax & smoke. We would rather buy at local stores but the price difference between local stores & Native American net sales is staggering - so we do a little of both. We travel less than we used to - too hard to know when we will be subjected to the puritan agenda - usually by a combination of "makes good press" laws & rude anti's.

There has been a lot of public discussion of taxing the internet - well the answer is forget sales taxes and excise taxes & "pick winners" and "pick losers" taxes. It is always the unpopular & the little guy who ends up paying. The chattering classes are able to use their "in" to join clubs & buy at duty free shops & go places where the customer comes first, not the government.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jennifer Wiegand:
Hey, I don't want to screw the Mom & Pop stores either, but there is NO WAY I'm paying $41.00 a carton for cigs when I can buy them for $28.00 someplace else. As I have said before, if the proprietors of these establishments have a complaint, it is not with me OR with the Indian tribes; it is with the Federal and State governments, and they should direct their complaints to them.

Until even non-smoking Americans take up our battle with us, nothing will change. When stores begin to close and businesses begin filing for bankruptcy, and the owners of said businesses begin complaining to the bureaucrats, THEN we will see results. If by telling the card-shop's customers about a cheaper place to buy cigarettes hastens that day along, well then so be it. We asked for the shopkeepers' help early on and we didn't get it. They made their beds. It is time to lie in them.

In the meantime, I am VERY much enjoying smoking cigarettes which are miraculously free of ANY tax stamps on them.

Regards,
Jenny

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To enjoy even more, I can suggest you the cheapest online cigarettes sale in the world, that is in Switzerland.
Visit: www.yesmoke.com
I buy cigarettes by mail from Switzerland, even if our Russian Marlboro are cheap. Through Switzerland I can get US made marlboro, much better than Russian made Marlboro, and the prices is the same:
1 carton $US 13.95 including air-mail delivery charges.
This is the only real duty-free shop on the net, I think.
by

natulka,
I ordered one carton of Camels from the Swiss site listed, to see for myself if it was on the up and up and, although it took longer than expected (a month) to get them, I did get them and at the advertised price.

My only concern is that some of the Swiss sites who advertise like this have been stopped at Customs and the buyer has been expected to pay an enormous duty fee.

Do you know how long YesSmokes has been in business?

My only concern is that some of the Swiss sites who advertise like this have been stopped at Customs and the buyer has been expected to pay an enormous duty fee.

Do you know how long YesSmokes has been in business? [/B][/QUOTE]

I ordered the first time 3 monts ago, and my pourchases have been 12 cartons. The fastest was 2 weeks and the longer about 40 days; I live in Lubirtz, small town near Moscow. But my friends from Great Britain, who suggested me this site, they said that they receive often parcels in 2-3 days, but sometime 10 days. They buy A LOT, we never paid duty tax. The problem is that this site has a very little choice.
Natulka