I...All,

You astonish me in your ability to reconfirm my initial belief. I try to give you a degree of respect in the hope that you'll possibly enlighten me if given the chance.

Instead, you wave away my response with a link to a BMJ Report from, good grief, Stanton Glantz. Stanton Glantz is to anti-smoking what Darth Vader is to The Empire. Whose criteria does Glantz and his colleagues cite three or four times in the report you've linked me to? Dr. Michael Siegel's.

You may not know this, I...All, but Dr. Siegel has left the anti-smoking movement and institutionalized anti-smoking has been told to ignore his views. Why? Because he has been incredibly vocal in his criticism of the anti-smoking movement and it's ridiculous non-scientific claims regarding secondhand smoke. The man whose work is the basis for this report is regularly referenced on this board and has posted to it himself.

Nice piece of propaganda included in the report; a poster with a bartender reading "Being a bartender is not a crime...it shouldn't carry the death penalty." Beyond absurd. Even if you took the statistics at face value, that bartender has less of a chance of dying from secondhand smoke than I do of dying from an aneurysm because of my anger at the poster.

I can't wait to walk with my grandchildren through a museum and see that one in the "Gallery of the Absurd".

I...All, why do you bother? Do you want to hear that anti-smoking is going to win? I have good news for you: you're right.

They're kicking the shit out of people like us. Do you think we're blind? I don't think you get it. You think it's all about defending cigarettes and smoking. I know this is hard to believe, but anti-smoking doesn't care about cigarettes or smoking. It's mindless. It serves a pattern that's been repeating itself since the beginning of recorded history. It's a mass movement. It's like a religion without a God. It's become larger than itself and it won't stop, even if
every person on Earth quits smoking tomorrow. It will continue on to food to the point that people are looking at others who eat a cheeseburger as if they just commited some high moral crime. You say "I don't think that will happen". If I told you that smoking would be banned in Las Vegas, in "Sin City", in 1987, you would've said the same thing.

For example, it seems a bit trite and unfair to compare 1930's Germany to this. No one has been gassed. I'll even admit, the comparison is insulting at this point in the game.

However, it's the same beast dressed in different clothes. It has recognizable symptoms. See the forementioned bartender poster for one. It's not a fictitious thing. It's the NORMAL thing. Western countries escaped this because of what happened in the U.S. 230 years ago but even the U.S. had this pattern adopted in policy as late as 1965.

Other nations have slaughtered at will. Did you see "Hotel Rwanda"? Do you remember Molosovich? Saddam Hussein? Idi Amin? Hitler? Stalin? Mao? They were real people and they weren't dumb or possessed by Satan, or inherently evil. Believe it or not, they all thought they were doing the right thing. It's not a moral beast; it just doesn't fucking care.

As I've said before, in the same way that you are not the DNA, the cells, the bones, muscle and flesh that make up the YOU that your family or friends know, this Beast I speak of is not the collective result of the people who compromise it. They're probably not bad people; probably quite the opposite.

This Beast always wears a white hat. It never wears a black hat.

I haven't engaged in useless tit for tats with you on this board, because, well, they're useless. I don't expect you to like smoking and, to my knowledge, no one has ever "F**k Youed" another into taking their position, unless they completely anhilated them. Think of the carpet bombing and the atomic bombing of the U.S. on the Japanese. The Japanese weren't surrendering until the curtain was very definitely closing.

Also, I don't think you're a bad person. Quite the contrary. You're probably someone who invests a great deal of his thought and time into how he can make the world better and probably has alot of love for people. That's not a comprehensive position on how to make the world better though.

I don't ask you to like smoking or cigarettes or tobacco, I...All, but I don't think you're able to make a good case for a world without these things. The anger of others here has probably led you to learn some things, but, honestly, you are not a very challenging debate, and I think you've mistaken the ire directed toward you as this being something worth doing.

I won't be responding to any more of your posts. Personally, I wish you well. I think, though, you would be doing a wise thing to leave this discussion board until you have a more comprehensive position on the topic. Otherwise, you're just a distraction from a more relevant and interesting discussion.

I really don't know why you guys waste your time with this I know nothing.

There is no debate there, it's like debating a rock.

To some, the truth cannot be told.

I agree 100%. Wish every site we're on had the 'ignore' function.

quote:

Originally posted by 383rr:
I really don't know why you guys waste your time with this I know nothing.

There is no debate there, it's like debating a rock.

To some, the truth cannot be told.

More like debating an anti-tobacco pamphlet, but it's still fun.

Yes it's a riot.

My concern is that I stumbled into this forum. I never came here on purpose, you know I have no idea what I was searching for but I saw some words that grabbed my eye. When I looked in on the discussion, I could not believe my eyes. My main concern is not for you people here although I wish none of you, not even nightlight any harm but my main concern is a person looking for quit information who stumbles in here and finds his saviour is a reason not to quit. Like has been said here often, people believe what they want to believe, a person who is ready to quit may be put back greatly if he stumbles on the threads here. I worry when I read "smoking is good for you" and the same person admits smokers live 5 years less on average. You’re right Winston I do care about people, I care about the world we will give our kids and the knowledge we hand to them as well. I am not a person who lectures people around me who smoke, they know I don't smoke and I don't like it, that's enough. I'm not part of any anti-smoking group, you know that as I have nothing but conviction. I rely on Google to find links to the answers to back up what I believe, I know it isn't particularly clever but nor are some of the links I have thrown at me. I don't use another forum or anti-smoking group as a link, how may pro-smokers would be able to say that? I never claimed to be a genius or a specialist in anti-smoking but here I am not permitted to have an opinion because it is different to nightlight and wheezer's. As you say, no one ever won a fight by saying F*^& you first or loudest, I always consider that a sign of victory, when my opponent says that. Have you counted the number of times I have copped a f*^&you or similar while I've been here? I won a few debates, and you think I am a weak debater.

Kick back and light another one people.
Happy 2007 all. Oh except Dave and 383rr who can't read this because they have their arses in the air and are eating sand. Is it nice sand there guys?

quote:

Originally posted by I know it all:
Yes it's a riot.

My concern is that I stumbled into this forum. I never came here on purpose, you know I have no idea what I was searching for but I saw some words that grabbed my eye. When I looked in on the discussion, I could not believe my eyes. My main concern is not for you people here although I wish none of you, not even nightlight any harm but my main concern is a person looking for quit information who stumbles in here and finds his saviour is a reason not to quit. Like has been said here often, people believe what they want to believe, a person who is ready to quit may be put back greatly if he stumbles on the threads here. I worry when I read "smoking is good for you" and the same person admits smokers live 5 years less on average. You’re right Winston I do care about people, I care about the world we will give our kids and the knowledge we hand to them as well. I am not a person who lectures people around me who smoke, they know I don't smoke and I don't like it, that's enough. I'm not part of any anti-smoking group, you know that as I have nothing but conviction. I rely on Google to find links to the answers to back up what I believe, I know it isn't particularly clever but nor are some of the links I have thrown at me. I don't use another forum or anti-smoking group as a link, how may pro-smokers would be able to say that? I never claimed to be a genius or a specialist in anti-smoking but here I am not permitted to have an opinion because it is different to nightlight and wheezer's. As you say, no one ever won a fight by saying F*^& you first or loudest, I always consider that a sign of victory, when my opponent says that. Have you counted the number of times I have copped a f*^&you or similar while I've been here? I won a few debates, and you think I am a weak debater.

Kick back and light another one people.
Happy 2007 all. Oh except Dave and 383rr who can't read this because they have their arses in the air and are eating sand. Is it nice sand there guys?

You certainly haven't won any debates here. As a matter of fact, it seems your goal here is not to debate, but to preach. The only thing you have convinced me of, is the fact that ex-smokers become antis because they want everyone to be as miserable as they are.

quote:

Originally posted by I know it all:
Yes it's a riot.

My concern is that I stumbled into this forum. I never came here on purpose, you know I have no idea what I was searching for but I saw some words that grabbed my eye.

One more thing: Methinks "you doth protest to much".

quote:

Originally posted by I know it all:
the same person admits smokers live 5 years less on average.
Kick back and light another one people.

Dear 'Know it all',
Your memory is gone. No one said that smokers live 5 years less.What was said is this:
-"-Smokers and nonsmokers had similar lifetime risks for cardiovascular disease, but smokers developed cardiovascular problems earlier in life and died an average of five years sooner. The researchers note that this might be due to other smoking-related causes such as lung disease and cancer."
They do not say smokers die from CVD deaths 5 years sooner;just that smokers age of death, from all causes, is 5 years younger.

For those 5 years to be indicative of premature deaths, both groups would have to be of the same average age. Smokers are,on average,5 years younger than nonsmokers(42 years-47.5 years).They are comparing apples and oranges.

Yes, I will kick back and light another one.

Your posts are becoming sillier and sillier and not worth the time spent in replying. Goodbye

Also, I might add, is that 5 years is a far cry from the Anti claim that smoking takes 14-20 years off a person's lifespan.

quote:

gkaser30
smokers age of death, from all causes, is 5 years younger.

quote:

I know it all
I worry when I read "smoking is good for you" and the same person admits smokers live 5 years less on average.

Exactly what I said. on average that is.

Some smokers do live longer than some non smokers but on average...

If you have enough time left gkayser30 you might find an adult literacy class to learn reading comprehension.

What is wrong with what gkayser30 has said above? Can anyone guess? The stats are worse that they at first appear, thanks for pointing that out gkayser30.

That's right, not only do smokers live 5 years less on average but the statistics are weighted even more in favour of non smokers as the smokers in the sample were 5 years younger than the non smokers. The non-smokers had spent 5 extra years exposed to SHS and environmental carcinogens than smokers.

I should point out these are not my numbers so anyone coming back at the stats it's gkayser30 you need to talk to.

quote:

Originally posted by I know it all:

quote:

gkaser30
smokers age of death, from all causes, is 5 years younger.

quote:

I know it all
I worry when I read "smoking is good for you" and the same person admits smokers live 5 years less on average.

Exactly what I said. on average that is.

Some smokers do live longer than some non smokers but on average...

If you have enough time left gkayser30 you might find an adult literacy class to learn reading comprehension.

I've got news for you dummy, I know a lot of smokers that have outlived a lot of non smokers. But that's neither here nor there. I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it any more. Therefore, I strongly suggest you take your preacher's stump to some other street corner. I'm sick of seeing your anti propaganda posts. You're quite right when you say that "you only believe want you want to believe". So I ask you, why do you want to believe what you believe?
May I suggest some reading material for you? Buy Michael Crichton's "State of Fear" and read it. Maybe then you will understand where we(the smokers)are coming from.

ladyteal,

Concerning your post.

*Wild applause*

Oh yes, found out there is a section in the Nico
Nazi law for Nevada.

Local Law Enforcement can CHOOSE NOT to enforce it.

quote:

Originally posted by ladyteal:

quote:

Originally posted by I know it all:

quote:

gkaser30
smokers age of death, from all causes, is 5 years younger.

quote:

I know it all
I worry when I read "smoking is good for you" and the same person admits smokers live 5 years less on average.

Exactly what I said. on average that is.

Some smokers do live longer than some non smokers but on average...

If you have enough time left gkayser30 you might find an adult literacy class to learn reading comprehension.

I've got news for you dummy, I know a lot of smokers that have outlived a lot of non smokers. But that's neither here nor there. I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it any more. Therefore, I strongly suggest you take your preacher's stump to some other street corner. I'm sick of seeing your anti propaganda posts. You're quite right when you say that "you only believe want you want to believe". So I ask you, why do you want to believe what you believe?
May I suggest some reading material for you? Buy Michael Crichton's "State of Fear" and read it. Maybe then you will understand where we(the smokers)are coming from.

I have news for you ladyteal,
I haven't said I only believe what I want to believe, I said people believe what they want to believe. You come to church to hear the message you want to hear, the one that allows you to continue with your addiction and attempt to justify it in your own mind. You listen to nightlight and winston etc who preach to you and you accept what is said without question. How would it feel if a non-believer went into the church and started pointing out that there are other interpretations of the bible that are as valid as those of the preacher? You feel that discomfort from my presence here. You come to church when your faith is waning or for a regular faith top up and there is someone there questioning the faith. Believe it or not it is human to question and explore, thankfully our ancestors did or we would live in Europe or where ever. It worries me not that your preachers may head over to my church as I have no church, I allow myself to be open to logical information and have no need of faith boosting. I'm not anti-smoking, I'm anti bullshit. This forum is full of it and it was there before I came in.
I also never said some smokers don't live longer than some non-smokers, if you take that reading comprehension course with gkayser30 you may be able to re-read what I wrote and understand it.

Lori,
Law enforcement can choose not to enforce a law but any enforcement officer who says they wont enforce a law is right out of line and should be pulled into line. Even if a law isn't enforced is it right to break the law? Does not being prosecuted, make a person who breaks the law less of a criminal? If your house is broken into, is the perpetrator a criminal even if they aren't caught?

YOU ARE QUITE WRONG! I do not take everything said on this BBS as gospel, nor do I dismiss information out of hand just because I don't like the message. You are the one that does that. You choose to believe that governments wouldn't lie about SHS. You choose blindly to follow the leader of your church. You do not make me feel uncomfortable. You anger me. I come here to chat with folks that have the same interests as myself. I DO NOT COME HERE to be preached at or harassed by a foam-at-the-mouth ANTI. I make my own decisions as to how and why I choose to live my life. Neither you, nor any government, has the right to do that for me.
As for the bullshit, you are the only one spewing it, and your role here is self-defeating. Your harassment, and the stalking by you and your ilk, only makes us more determined to keep living our lives in the same manner as before. Everything you say about smoking we have heard millions of times. What we choose to believe is our business, not yours. Why we choose to believe what we believe is our business, not yours. Appointing yourself as the "great redeemer" is unwarranted.
As for your oft-repeated claims of stumbling on to this site by accident, I don't buy them. You are nothing but a liar, and you have no credibility here.

quote:

Originally posted by ladyteal:
I come here to chat with folks that have the same interests as myself. I DO NOT COME HERE to be preached at or harassed by a foam-at-the-mouth ANTI.

After you sign in, click the Go tab at the top of the page, then click Personal Zone, then click Ignore List from the little dropdown menu. There you can add the know-it-all to your Ignore List and you won't have to see his inane propaganda anymore. Works great!

quote:

Originally posted by tnsmoker:

quote:

Originally posted by ladyteal:
I come here to chat with folks that have the same interests as myself. I DO NOT COME HERE to be preached at or harassed by a foam-at-the-mouth ANTI.

After you sign in, click the Go tab at the top of the page, then click Personal Zone, then click Ignore List from the little dropdown menu. There you can add the know-it-all to your Ignore List and you won't have to see his inane propaganda anymore. Works great!

Yes the yummy taste of sand.
If I was a plant as I have been accused of being would I be so ill prepared? Would I be caught out so often and would I admit there may be some benefits from tobacco? I doubt it, however you will believe what you like to believe. As for not having blind faith, I never see you question your religious leaders nor seeking clarification on even one point. I have looked into each point raised here by the people with enough ability to try and find reason for their own faith and I have learned from the experience where you follow brother Koresh, oh no I mean nightlight blindly as his is a message you need to hear as it eases your anxiety.

As for the same interests, maybe a real hobby or interest like stamp collecting or gardening would be an interest, tobacco is an addiction not an interest. Unless that is, you are a tobacco grower or producer in your spare time, otherwise smoking isn't something you would put on a job resume as an interest is it? Or is your interest one sided debating?
When you pop you head in the hole next to tnsmoker can you ask him how the sand tastes today for me please? Maybe if it's sweet you can invite other ostriches over to his patch.

quote:

Ignored post by I know it all posted Mon January 01 2007 02:26 PM

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh, sweet satisfaction!

Snickers ain't the only thing that satisfies!

tnsmoker,

Thank you.

Happy New year!